Prabir Jha | Ex-CHRO at Cipla,Reliance,Tata Motors,Dr Reddy’s

Career Conversations | Prabir Jha | One of India’s most iconic HR leaders Founder & CEO Prabir Jha People Advisory Ex-CHRO at Cipla,Reliance,Tata Motors,Dr Reddy’s #StraightTalk #LinkedinPowerProfile #Transformation #TEDx #Columnist Educational Qualifications • P.G. Diploma in Personnel Management & Industrial Relations, 1997–99, XLRI Jamshedpur • M.A. (History), 1988–90, St. Stephen’s College, Delhi • B.A. (Hons), History, 1985–88, St. Stephen’s College, Delhi • Indian School Certificate (Humanities), St. Michael’s High School, Patna, 1983–85 • I.C.S.E., St. Michael’s High School, Patna, 1983 ex CHRO Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories Ltd. | Tata Motors | Reliance Industries | Cipla Now CEO- Prabir Jha Advisory https://www.linkedin.com/in/prabir-jha-991a5a10/

Q1. You spent your formative years in St. Michael’s, Patna. So what were your takeaways from convent education — English articulation skills, values, belief system? Why did you keep changing schools so often?

Ans: My father was in the IPS so as he moved around, we had to move around a little, at least till we got into the seventh standard and after then even as he moved, we were very much in Patna. That explains different schools in different districts in the early years, and he was a tough police officer so not a convenient political choice so he had to keep moving around. So that is how it was but we were very fortunate that my parents put us through Jesuit education so I think when I look back the biggest thing that I gained from a very good topnotch Jesuit education was of course very high quality education, the category of teachers, the ICSE curriculum, all that was very good, but most of all I think we grew up with a lot of values, because Jesuit schools do teach you a lot of things which we call moral science, a lot of good values got shaped, core beliefs got shaped, to do good to people, the value of integrity. So these were things that over 12 years of Jesuit education almost became a way of being and as ii started my career I am very grateful that not only did I have very good school education, but I had very good value education in the Jesuit schools that I went to.

Q2. In class 11, what was the thought process in your mind behind choosing your stream? At that point of time, would you take up humanities with an eye on the UPSC after some years?

Ans: I always thought I have been both strategic and contrarian, so when I finished my 10th and my marks were reasonably good I must confess but I made a choice to do humanities, because ever since I was in the 7th or the 8th standard, I was very clear that maybe was the product of the environment my father being in the civil service, there was not much of the private sector in Bihar at that time and so if you were a bright student, then having initials behind your name was the logical social expectation, of course you could have been a doctor or an engineer, but I will be very honest, neither appealed to me. Neither engineering nor medicine was something that ever appealed to me. The government was where I wanted to be, a bureaucrat, a civil servant, so as they say when others were learning ABCD we were learning UPSC. So that’s really what I did and therefore when I finished my 10th I chose humanities because very clearly for me it was to do humanities and then go to St. Stephen’s College, Delhi to do history and write the English exam, so that’s the way I had thought almost 7–8 years ahead of what I did and that’s actually what the script that I laid out. So it was a very strategic choice and pick and god has been kind so no regrets but yes if it had not planned out as well I don’t know whether I would have regretted but it was a very conscious choice and that’s why I also have a very strong point of view on stereotyping that if a guy has not done science, the guy is an idiot. I can tell you a huge majority of my classmates’ marks were worse than me and they took science and engineering and did whatever so that’s never faced me that what have you studied. If you are a bright guy, it doesn’t matter what your interests are, you must what you really are passionate about and not just conventionally play safe because there is no playing safe.

Q3. How was the scene in St. Stephen’s in the 80s in terms of admission, was the rat race as intense?

Ans: It was always very tough and I was the All India Topper in humanities and I applied for history, second preference literature, third preference economics, and I got for all three and the first was economics and I had to tell them I am not interested in economics and they asked then why did you come for the interview because Stephen’s was one college which never went strictly by marks. There was an interview and then only did you get to be selected or rejected. I remember history was the next day and there was no guarantee just because I was the All India Topper I would get through the course in the college that I wanted. So I went across to Hindu College which is across the road and I took admission and my father reminds me even today that the professor there said why are you blocking a seat because an All India Topper is bound to get into St. Stephen’s, but because of the interview criteria you never know till you are finally there. So I did take admission at Hindu, next day I cleared the history interview so I got admission into Stephen’s, I paid my fees and then withdrew my candidature from Hindu College. So that’s how the entire thing played out and I think it was very tough. The challenges of education in India has only been getting worse but it was never good, it has always been tough, getting into a good college into a good course and that’s the talent paradox that we see that there are people and people and yet there are very few right seats, very few right colleges. I am glad I don’t have to try for admission today, I am sure that even with my marks, I wouldn’t have been able to make it into college like St. Stephen’s.

Q4. Were people at the ground level in those ordnance factories wherever you moved around amenable to the kind of ideas that you have, which you implemented later in the private sector?

Ans: I must admit I have always been a little more firebrand than most people, I have never played a conformist that just keep it going, play it safe, I was the same as the government, people used to call me “dabang” which I think I was. The good news is that I think when I look back I was able to accomplish a fair part in the government reality and a lot of it is because your staff and team rallied with you, and I have talked about this earlier, unlike the private sector where you can reward or punish someone, you can’t do all that in the government. In many ways in an unconscious way I learnt the art of leadership even before I went to do my MBA because it was all about inspiring your team and it’s an average set of people, they are all committed, they are not Einstein or Bernard Shaw. I realised you can climb Mount Everest provided you get the team to rally with you and around you, so you did explain the logic and reason and people are smart, they understand anything of just common sense, and we actually did many things where we changed the laws or the rules that existed at that time. I think the biggest credit I would give is to the team, whether it’s the corporate sector or the private sector, they make the leader, who he or she becomes and I think they rallied behind me brilliantly and the fourth pay commission was something that was among my earlier responsibilities implementing ruling art things and I finally signed, but to get to that point of signature to get the team to still work on Saturdays and Sundays and to do it in record time was a lot of their belief and maybe a little bit of leadership or just connecting people, just making them feel important and significant and the rest automatically gets done. So no, I never had resistance, I never had a problem with a single union in my career, so god has been very kind and people have been very benevolent with me. I honestly don’t think I have had skirmishes or challenges in my government days.

Q5. Then taking a sabbatical and then going to XLRI, was it more of serendipity or was it that you wanted to make a better use of your box of colors?

Ans: Both, so while I aspired to be a civil servant so life wasn’t very comfortable, we had a nice colonial bungalow, my wife was a batchmate in the civil service, in office three people would open your doors and stuff like that, but I realised that I was feeling a little bored and I wanted to study. So that was definitely a reality and in PhD I thought I was a little too early for me, I never enjoyed finance or accounts, I found it very dry. I would have enjoyed marketing but government and marketing did not make sense to me and HR, a lot of exposure that the government was around, so I said why not and that’s how I took a charge at not studied for so many years. I wrote the entrance exam like everyone else, miracle of miracles I cleared. Second was of course as I mentioned in the interview, if India has to change, the government and if the government has to change, the civil service has to change, and if the civil service has to change, people like us who were fortunate to get pedigree education, we need to be at the forefront of driving that change and I got an MBA at XLRI specializing in HR would possibly compete the contemporary tools to use. I had never thought I would leave the government. I never aspired to be in the private sector, so that time was only about re-tooling myself with what is the latest in my line and come back and possibly go to Rio de Janeiro and stuff like that. What happened was pure accident but it was partly the boredom and the need to study more and second was to re-tool myself to be relevant as a change agent as the government and the bureaucracy must move changed, that’s why I went and wrote the exams.

Q6. When you moved on to the private sector across those leadership roles that you played in six major corporates, Reliance, Cipla and so on, you have been able to ride the most difficult of the horses. So how was the journey and what were the moments that really tested your tenacity of purpose and corporate politics?

Ans: It’s been 20 years in the corporate including two Fortune 500 companies to NYC listed companies so I think it’s been a dream run. God has been absolutely benevolent with me but yes it’s not been easy and most of the years I have been a CHRO, in fact most of my corporate years has been as a chief human resource officer across Dr. Reddy’s, Tata Motors, Reliance and till recently Cipla and most of what I have done has been what I would loosely characterize as an organisation transformation and when you are trying to change things in a company and successful companies, well-respected companies, you can rest assured there is resistance and different point of views because people talk about change but no one likes change. It’s my experience that people just talk about being pro-change but everyone resists because political coalitions get disturbed, political terms get disturbed, you feel scared about new future and a lot of my challenge really has been about getting the right team because you can’t do large scale transformation all by yourself so the credit of successful transformation of all these companies till the time I spent with them, the huge credit is to my team and they have been a phenomenal bunch and I have been very conscious of who I pick and I keep on the team because they must be smarter and better than me, there’s no point having people who are exactly like me and I think that’s been a strategy which has paid off beautifully for me. Secondly, a lot of it is about influence. How would you influence, who would you influence and in which sequence do you influence, I think these are matters of great judgement and I would like to believe when I look back that most of my calls have turned out to be true and fair, not all but most of them, and if you been able to rally the key opinion makers on to your side and have the rank and file ultimately believe you and trust you and back you up and you have a competitive team to handhold you through the journey, you will deliver the transformation but all the question, elements that you asked for were there. There is police politics, there is jealousy, not everyone wants to see you succeed, you discover friends and allies in very unknown places including in the union so become very strong allies for change. A lot of it is your own belief and conviction because I have always felt that if you want to do it, people may try and delay you but they can never stop you. I can remember a lot of instances if I had only laid out my blueprint of transformation, I don’t think much has got mutilated or changed. To make a few political concessions here and there but by and large the script has largely remained unchanged, so it’s never an easy journey and it needs tremendous courage to be able to conceive and ton drive home transformation because there are many times when the knives are out for you and I have always said you can’t be scared and work, so you might carry resignations in your pocket but do what is the right thing to do and that’s what helps you actually push the dream, otherwise everyday there will be ten reasons why you say “whose battle am I fighting? Is it really worth it?” but it’s been strenuous for me a lot for sure but its been a very fulfilling journey.

Q7. How do you manage to be so humble after all that you have achieved?

Ans: I won’t say I am not proud of some of these awards. I think I am a normal human being, but I am not overly carried away with that because at the end of the day no one remembers awards. In fact, my wife said “can you dump some of these awards? We don’t have space for so many of these awards.” So I think I will take photographs and keep them away or throw them away or whatever, I think I have never played for an award, they have happened. I am very grateful and humble they came my way but I think the other key reason apart from my Jesuit education, the values my parents gave me, the credit is my wife’s because she has kept me very anchored, very deep-rooted. People have never believed that I do a fair bit of household chores, I can do almost everything. I clean toilets, I make beds, and I did the grooming of my pet, and I do my weekly shopping and buying of everything for the week for the last 25 years and I don’t do it on some online shopping, I go to a small middle-class grocery or a vegetable vendor and I buy things from there. So I think it’s important to remind oneself that success many times is the goal, but success is not always yours and it makes you feel a lot lighter because at the end of the day god has been kind. I have always said that I was jumping on and off DTC busses till I became a bureaucrat so if the transformation was absolutely bizarre from a ticketless traveler to almost to being saluted. Similarly in the corporate sector of the best of cars and the best of offices but I am equally comfortable just walking to a market and buying my own vegetables, meat, chicken like anyone else. I just want to feel very light; I don’t want anything to be lying on heavy on my shoulders. If people are nice, god bless them, but all that I have valued is freedom of expression, freedom of thought and speech, I don’t want anyone to say I am a great guy but I definitely want that he’s a guy with point to view. As long as I had a point of view and as long as I had a point to be when I was not scared of speaking my point of view, I think it’s been a good life.

Q8. Was entrepreneurship the next journey on the path of self-realization or self-actualization?

Ans: At one level it is because as I said I have been a CHRO of almost every large corporation one would aspire to be. I don’t think anyone in India has done two Fortune 500 company HR leadership roles yet, so it was a very fulfilling, very demanding for 20 years but it was a logical effort to try and play what in call the gig world and see how it is because I had never done it and knowing myself I wanted to do something I had never done before and hopefully I will learn but I have also had some family circumstances issues including parents’ health, etc, which needed me to have more flexibility with my time because I was very clear, I did not want my conscience to prick tomorrow that I had my money and my car and my title and a big corporate job but people who needed my time, I was not there for them. So it’s been a combination of both, part of it is just like leaving the government and trying something in the corporate world or leaving the comfort of the corporate and trying something that I have never done before. If it works out, it’s great, if it doesn’t work out, I still have many years ahead of me and I am sure someone will find value in me, but more importantly I will be able to spend time a little more flexibly with my parents and some of my family members who are right now going through some difficult health situation. So for me the priority is to be very clear at any point in time, I am just doing what my conscience is telling me to do.

Q9. What should be the thought process of one behind choosing the career of HR?

Ans: Many people would have different take on what it takes to ask yourself whether you are cut out for HR, but to me couple of dimensions you should ask whether you like. If you like to be in roles where you influence and your reputation, your effectiveness comes through influence, look at HR. if you want that everything I control and I manage everything, am on top of it, HR is not the world for you because the irony of the gender is that HR in my mind is the most sensitive aspect of running an organisation, but it is the only function where everyone has a point of view, not everything can be reduced to two plus two is four. Your one function which is not really executing everything which is not your agenda. You execute it through a series of line managers, so a lot of the HR experiences is not HR the function and you have to take a lot of slack for reasons that are not fair. So it’s a very difficult function, if you enjoy influencing, you will love it, if you enjoy branding and marketing, you will love it because you sell dreams and aspirations to people. If you have courage, you will enjoy it, but if you are scared, don’t do it. If you enjoy people, it helps but it’s difficult, how you say no can be very different but if you thought it as an easy job of making people happy, it’s not what it is and most important is if you have a strategic mind, because when something has to be delivered which is 100% quantifiable, measurable in everything you do, it’s a much simpler problem solve. Here you are doing things which are not always quantifiable and I don’t think we should reduce everything to a number which is the other worry I have when I see the trends, and many a times you sow things where you reap the harvest even when you are not there, so let’s say you do something in a company, you may have left the company when the company actually gains and profits from what you thought 5 years ago, so no one is going to reward or award you that way. It’s a difficult function but if you really enjoy these four or five dimensions, I think it’s a great line because the reward that I speak at least from my experience both companies sooner or later and people in general, if you have coached and helped them, get to their levels of success and fulfillment, they hold you in high esteem till death. No other function has that opportunity of impacting lives, and careers and the being of people that HR in its true sense has and that itself makes it not only a great noble function but a very strategic agenda to spend your career.

Q10. How has been your experience recruiting and managing millennials?

Ans: I have a mixed response to this. The word millennial has become a very stereotyped and a very trite word. It’s like saying every millennial is cut through in the same cookie cutter which is not true. A millennial in Patna is very different and a millennial in Bombay so I don’t think I will stereotype millennials as there are people in the past pre-millennials in the workforce, some of their issues an agenda has remained the same. They have had the same issues about careers, learning, impact, may be even compensation, no different than the millennials. The difference that I find is millennials are typically more expressive, more experimental, they are willing to try things out, they are willing to do five things at the same time and the challenge is to respect this growing tendency. I see this in my own house; I have two children; both are in the field of law and they just think different. You can’t just order them and they will be quite, and I don’t think it is right or wrong but the challenge is about understanding them. The challenge is about spending time with them and what I worry about a lot of leaders is they don’t have the time to spend rank-and-file with the youngsters; you need to reverse mentor. Millennials are so accepting and bright, they will be CHROs even before I became a CHRO and I was a fast-tracker. So I don’t think it is a challenge, but it is about a call. If you are judging them all the time, I think you are missing the plot, because they will not change for you, you will have to change for them and this is the mental challenge a lot of leaders are struggling with. As leader, many of us are stuck in the past whereas with millennials, you have got to be with them now and in the future and that’s the only challenge. Once you get them to get your pint of view, and you are willing to flex, I think it’s a lovely tangle to do with the millennials, I don’t think it’s a challenge, it’s a great opportunity to have the moment to learn with them, work with them, and to impact with them.

Q11. At the beginning of your journey, did you think that you would come all this far?

Ans: I will be very honest, what was my aspiration. My conscious aspiration was to have cleared the UPSC, to become a civil servant, get to being a secretary or equivalent to the government of India, retire with a Maruti 800 and a flat. That was aspiration, there was nothing more. One can give you a big story and say a lot of things and I can tell you most successful people really did not know they would be as successful and many more were more successful than me but the simple answer is no and the idea is to take it as it comes. When you overly script it, then you create too much pressure because careers are not about running hundred meters dash, there are so many curves and bends. You have got to enjoy every curve and bend; don’t judge yourself too harshly, don’t judge others too conveniently. What’s the point of being successful if you are not happy and for me I have always said and I wrote a piece on this many years back, be successful by all means but more importantly be happy, because if you are not happy your success does not count at all. Of course luck plays a role; you happen to be the right guy with the right problem with the right people. I always say that my CEO at Dr. Reddy’s, and I am saying it again, he’s the guy who took the biggest risk and I think that’s where I learned. When I look back I have taken bets with so many people, ahead of time, irrespective of their education, irrespective of what industry they had been in because he took a bet with me when I was 36–37, when he made me the CHRO when I was enlisted at Dr. Reddy’s. I have never asked for my increment, promotion, bonus and that night I couldn’t sleep, it was not out of happiness, it was just that whether I will be able to do it so I was lucky I got hired as a CEO and he was a leader who took infinite risks with younger talents. There are many leaders who just don’t go away, they don’t take bets with younger people. Had I worked with someone else, I would not have become a CHRO at Tata Motors, Reliance wouldn’t find an interest and so on so forth. So I think serendipity, luck, makes a difference but at the same time you must be willing to play that card well. There’s no point in saying I had the luck. You can get the entry ticket but to convert that entry ticket into a ticket to win is your brilliance, your ability to lead, your ability to build your reputation, that’s in your hands, but breaks do happen by chance that’s true.

Q12. What is your fitness strategy?

Ans: When I look at top campuses in India, whether engineering, business education, law, I think the apathy towards mental health is so stark, and it is so painful. They are not bad people, they are bright children, but it starts from there and it happens even corporates; bipolarism, work stress issues. Mental health at one level, you need to train yourself. You take time off, you switch off on a weekend or do you carry office tensions home, what are the passions, interests and hobbies do you have which takes your mind away. I cook, for 13 years I had a dog and I spent time with him, something which is not work. There are many people who don’t have a passion, hobby, interest at all, so that stress is a big concern so I tell everyone learn to develop some passion interest beyond your work, an identity beyond your work. I think there’s a big problem on long hours and in my mind stupid use of hours, we are not efficient as a country. On the physical side flowing from the mental, it’s true all of us need to renew ourselves, so whether it’s your health through your physical exercises, do whatever it is and the doctor say 30–40 minutes of walk even four to five times a day is enough but even for that we don’t get time out. Nothing is more important than your health and let me tell you this after three decades of working, no company will collapse even if you are the promoter, the chairman, the CEO, if something happens to you, but your family will lose you altogether. So get to be more responsible for yourself, for your family beyond your company. It doesn’t take the company 2 minutes to replace you and maybe not even a prayer meeting will be done. This is the unfortunate reality so please focus on your health, please take time out, take vacations, walk, play some sport. If you don’t get time first for yourself then there is something fundamentally wrong and no salary, no title, no rat race is worth it. Take this very seriously because you owe it to yourself and to your family.

Q13. What would be your advice to youngsters with respect to careers?

Ans: First is, don’t try and please someone you are not. Don’t be me; be yourself, because that is where your genius will come like. Second, don’t be a prisoner of your education and your past experiences. Careers of tomorrow are not going to be built on what was your CGPA and which companies you worked in. Many people are skeptical about thinking differently. They are all wanting jobs; look beyond jobs. Careers are not about a set of jobs; they are a set of experiences. What I am doing, I am doing, maybe two years later I won’t do but I will learn something different. Experiment with yourself a lot more. Don’t look for doing the same thing because just doing 30 years in one company, the same job, does not mean you are a great careerist. Invest in your learning, both your soft skills, which becomes more important beyond a point and also some of the skills as they are changing. Review your own skillset — soft and hard, the way your review your investments. That is what will help you build your career. Most importantly, dream big and have the courage to fill in because when you fail you will learn more but unfortunately many people just want to play safe. More than the brand of the company that you work with, work with the right people. People say that can’t choose their manager; I have chosen my manager, when I decide to leave, I decide to leave a manager. Is it risky? Of course it’s risky but you can’t just be there and say what can I do the manager is bad, then I have no advice. Have the guts to walk to, have the guts to experiment, work with managers who will allow you to grow, doesn’t matter which company he or she is but work with people who will make you grow, not with people who are going to extract their little reward and their little work out of you. these are very basic things but unfortunately we just became robos on treadmill and that’s why careers of tomorrow will not happen. So if these 5–6 things people are able to stop, pause, reflect and everything fails reach out to me, I will be happy to help you guys on that journey.